This article was sparked by 2 recent entries on WebBall...

1. A page on pitch count that included both the original ASMI (American Sports Medicine Institute) determination on safe pitch count by age, and the subsequent revised Little League version.
2. A new series by Alan Jaeger on arm regression in which he expresses concern about the "babying" of pitching arms, particularly in the U.S. His solution was better conditioning and more intense long toss.

This was referenced in a WebBall Insider newsletter (5/09/07) and the final catalyst was an email on 5/10/07 from a Dad who objected to any pitch count restrictions and seemed to take everything said by instructors like Jaeger as a justification for his own intense training program with his 8 y.o. now 11.

Alan's series did not mention pitch count; the Dad did not mention long toss;
but the timing of the two events did lead to the next step...

WebBall's Richard Todd felt the Dad's approach - especially on the heels of announcing the new "regressing arms" series - required an immediate response (5/10/07). This then opened the floodgates for others to jump into the fray -  mostly against the Dad's excessive approach, but also support from a surprising source.

We have provided links to the pages above which sparked the debate. Below we reproduce the Dad's email and Richard's response which was circulated to the Insider subscriber list, followed by some of the many, many comments we received (with additional thoughts by WebBall).

Note: we have made this an "article" page (although there is no single author) so that others may continue to add comments. We have not named most of the original contributors, but those who add comments now will be identified and are expected to follow the netiquette rules established for WebBall Team Players.


I wonder if the panel that ruled in the pitch count ever stopped to think that we as humans are all unique.  We have varying levels of capabilities.  If we were all born with the same exact DNA then the pitch count would be appropriate.  However, since we are all different then why would anyone think that a hard and fast rule would be beneficial.

At age 8, I would let my son pitch 80 to 100 pitches to me everyday, and half that if he was scheduled to pitch in a game the next day. He has a strong arm and we make sure he is completely loosened up before he starts throwing the fast ball.  He is fully capable of pitching well over 100 pitches in a game and he still strikes batters out in the last inning with the fast ball or slider.

I don't think all youngsters can do this, but why should he be restricted from pitching to his potential because other pitchers cannot perform at that level ?

I am sure the answer is that there are too many coaches out there that don't have the interest of the player at heart, but rather concentrate only on winning. There is no way to eliminate that problem, but there must be a better way to allow players to reach there potential without hurting others.

Please continue to publish all those article refutting this dumb decision.


If I created the impression that no pitch count rules, limits, or guidelines are necessary, that wasn't my intent.

I do agree with you that not all young players are created equal. And the fact that your son is still pitching at age 11 is reassuring, if not encouraging.

But before you assume that ALL pitch count rules are dumb, or that kids who seem stronger externally can handle the rigors of pitching internally, there are some factors you should consider that WebBall covers under TRAINING > First Aid. For instance, click here.

A new series by Alan Jaeger is based on his experience with players H.S. and up, and predicated on the intense training routine he puts them through. Likewise the success Ron Wolforth has with younger kids is based on them following his Combat conditioning program.

Plus there are factors related to growth plates that are not solidified until age 16 and so you can expect some young pitchers to experience possible deformity from arm abuse at young ages.

In other words, there is a difference between being well prep'd and just throwing a lot. Parents need to be advised and well informed before making any decision that could in time be detrimental. Knowledge is power.

If you read the special notice on the pitch count page... "For the record, no 11 y.o. we coach would ever be allowed to pitch 85 pitches; we are reluctant to let a 15 y.o. pitch 95."

This is not because we think none of them can handle it - it is because we don't always know which of them can, and they don't always tell us when they're hurting (macho bravado can lead to career ending injuries before careers start).

Plus I like to think that as an experienced coach I have a good handle on how to teach pitchers, but being confident and being certain are two different things.

So, while I agree with you that young pitchers are not all the same, you asked why your son should "be restricted from pitching to his potential because other pitchers cannot perform at that level ?"  My answer would be - because you may not be as certain as you think you are about what the pitching is doing to his internal muscular-skeletal structure.

Unless you are willing or able to afford X-Ray and MRI tests both before and at several times during each season, unless your training focus with him is on legs, core, stamina, mental discipline, all before throwing, you are taking some risk - it's just that neither you nor I know how great that risk might be.



IMPORTANT: These comments arrived in the first 24 hrs after WebBall's response. They are first reactions directed at the over-eager Dad, not at Alan Jaeger's long toss program. But we do know that many of those who question anyone exceeding pitch count limits would also challenge any idea that we should train young kids with more intensity. In fact, Alan's initial reaction to the Dad was that he "has a point".

Some submitted emails are followed by added thoughts from WebBall.

What is this "Knucklehead" doing having his 8 year old throw sliders???

What the heck is he doing allowing his 8 yr old (or 11 year old for that matter) to throw sliders???? Maybe he does not have the best interest of his kid and is one of those
dad's who prefer to showcase his son's talents.

WebBall Response: I'm with you but we already talked about the breaking pitch issue so this was just about pitch count (and arm regression).

"My son" says it all.

Maybe he can't see the injury risk for all the stars in his eyes.

You should be horsewhipped for allowing a 8-12 year old to throw 100 pitches including sliders. It's not where we start it's where we end up. I've seen too many young boys start out great only to end up with dead arms. We all want our kids to be big leaguers but only 2 out of a million boys in America ever make it to the big league level. Maybe you should throw in a little homework also.
- from a Dad with a 12 year old who is experiencing arm problems already who followed with...

I'm sorry if it seemed my words were directed to WebBall. NO - I meant the idiot who thinks working his son to death is HIS dream. I've coached and scouted for some time and I've seen too many sore arm kids.

WebBall Response: We have a section on the "impossibilities" which also makes your point... http://www.webball.com/cms/page1340.cfm To be accurate - there are closer to 6 million or so kids playing ball and 750 major leaguers (not counting 40 man rosters) so 125 in a million or closer to 1 in 10,000 - still strikes me as difficult and really should not be the purpose of youth baseball. So I agree with you. But there is a greater stardom that is the more immediate draw, and therefore the real problem for many parents - the pressure to get to the LLWS. I sadly hear from a lot of these Dads and hear about a lot of these crushed dreams.

Ask ANY orthopedist and he will tell you, "a person has 'just so many' pitches in his arm.  When that limit (based on the individuality or uniqueness of the person) is reached, that person is done." That's why you see some pro players pitch longer than others, some exiting the scene as early as their mid-20's.  They're just done.  How many pitches does YOUR son have in his arm? You don't know. But are you sure you want him pitching them all at the age of 11? I've been 'lucky.' My son is a late bloomer.  He's just now at the age of 17 coming into his own. He's fresh and ready and pitching well around others that have been pitching since the age of 9 or ten. Those boys are wearing out, my son is just getting started and I'm very satisfied with that. But I will NOT pitch my son more than 80-90 pitches in a game. Yes, he CAN go as many as 100-120.  But why?  Why wear him out for [youth league] or a stupid tournament team that has nothing to do with his adult career?

WebBall Response: While I agree with some of what you say, Jaeger explains why the "so many pitches" argument has no scientific merit at all. On that basis we should discourage people from taking long walks in case they only have so many strides in their legs. Sorry, doesn't wash. Exercise promotes health, conditioning promotes stamina and endurance. It's not about throwing it's about conditioning. That doesn't mean I don't agree with pitch count concept. And I question that Dad because I don't believe he is equipped with sufficient knowledge to know what is happening in his son's arm. I would discourage him, but I would also discourage you as well from turning this into a belief-based approach - the mythology of "so many pitches".

A kid throwing 100 pitches at age 8? Sliders at age 8? I would like to hear from this parent/coach in about 5-7 years and see how the kids arm is doing! My bet is he will be an average, at best, pitcher by this time. I have found that as the kids that are dominate at young ages (not all but a large percentage) and can throw the ball by everyone at 46' have trouble when they move back to 54' to 60'. My son is now 14 and when he was 11-12 he was in the above category. Now he has problems getting outs because he did not learn to pitch. He was just a thrower. He is pitching less now as this season is progressing, which to be honest is fine with me because when he isn't on the mound he is behind the plate so he is throwing a lot already. I think that his coach has finally realized that he was over working him and that he is hurting the team, and my son, more by pitching him after 4-5 innings of catching. Anyway, the dad/coach above needs to slow down with his son and teach him to be a PITCHER not a thrower, no matter how many pitches he can throw at a young age.

I wholly agree with [WebBall's] comments and I have tremendous respect for anyone who is aware of the total person, including muscle and skeletal development and the developmental processes governing them. To ignore the warnings and experiences of those who have made training and safety of the athlete at all ages their life's work is very foolish. A coach who attends to the complete needs of an athlete, beginner or advanced, in baseball will be concerned about throwing motion of all players and pitch count, too, if pitching is involved. I have read interviews with orthopaedic doctors who agree with the Sports Medicine people, even one who actually coaches kids.

Even I can see differences in kids' abilities and arm strength, but I don't have a crystal ball that assures me I can over-pitch a kid for the sake of winning; therefore, I do not do it.

WebBall Response: I think we rely on pitch count out of necessity as a substitute for real knowledge - the point you make in your last comment. It's also the point missed by that other dad who sparked the controversy.

When writing our local [League] Rules, monitoring pitch counts was a big issue. What drove our need to implement the pitch count rule came from our need to select the best pitchers for our all star team. We had a majority of kids whose arms were shot, so we created the Rule. This pitch count rule is intended to preserve all arms no matter if they are All Star arms or not. The reality is DNA differences or not, growth plates of young kids through 18 years of age are still developing, and just because a father determines his kid can easily pitch 80-100 pitches is crazy. All the research indicates overuse at a young age will eventually catch up with that body part and surgery is not a too uncommon reality. Having surgery to stay in the game is now culturally accepted, but is it right??  Talk to the DNA?

The point of the pitch count is that the kids can play ball, be it competitive, or recreational to reduce the potential of having a chronic injury and the pain. Who are we to fool with a kid's health just to win a game that will be all but forgotten when they are adults?  Rules on pitch counts are in-place to protect the kids and allow them the opportunity to move on to higher levels of competition in one piece.

A kid's DNA will start talking when the pain arrives. We are also making assumptions that a kid has perfect mechanics that fits his/her body make-up that is complementary to their particular DNA.  Somehow I don't think this can be quantified to meet our satisfaction or more importantly meet the requirements of  the kids' body. Last time I checked no printed instructions came with a kid that would allow him to pitch 100 pitches at age 12.

The quality of the pitch and pitcher comes gradually with time and gaining the knowledge of one's body, and when kid is under 16 years of age, they should not be the ones who make the determination on how many pitches they can or cannot make, there are too many variables. Neither should a parent make this determination when the future is at risk. I've observed a former Pro pitcher push his pitcher son and by age 16, this boy had Tommy John Surgery. That's pushing it way too far in my opinion. That kid is no longer in the queue to be getting offers from quality colleges to play ball, what a waste.

Quality of life is not directly tied to being able to pitch a baseball, it's only a part of life's experiences.

- Rick Story

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I've coached baseball & softball for 29 - 30 years; I'm now pushing 70 yrs old. I pitched for years, got sore arms, got over them and actually threw harder (faster) in the end when I was 27 - 28. We never knew about grow plates and all that modern stuff. We forgot and left baseballs out in the rain , picked them up the next day or so and played a game with them, but now they weighed about 12oz or so and stung like heck when you hit it, hurt when you caught it and felt like a ton when you threw it!!

That was in the 1940's -50's and it was common for everyone to play with wet baseballs, and I bet a lot of these guys went on to play Major League ball as pitchers.

I believe if you've got the talent to be a major league pitcher, and play on teams where you're not overlooked, then you can get scouted and signed, even if you threw 100's of pitches through out growing up.

To kind of put it in perspective, I just happened to sit next to two Major League baseball scouts at a Minor League AA game. I was watching a certain player and we just started talking baseball and how fast guys move up from A & AA etc. At one point I was told "You know, lets face it, at A level & AA level out of both teams on the field and in the bull pens & dugouts, there's maybe one or two players here who will ever play Major League baseball!! The other scout says "Yea and that goes for about every team in the Leagues, maybe one out of 120 players will ever get there, and new kids are getting signed out of college every year, so it's a big circle of players. Kind of makes you think when coaching kids, the coach has to forget about his ego, record and "coaching winning teams", and just play all the kids equal innings and let them have fun.

Those with the talent will rise to the top, maybe go to college and sign a minor league contract. Most will play through high school only, and a few in men's leagues or college, get a job and get married and raise kids. It's great to dream with your kids about playing pro ball especially when you got a real talented "little Johnnie" but you gotta remember that for Johnnie to play , you're gonna have to have a team of 10 or 12 kids. Let them all have fun and play them equal innings. You won't win as many games, but the kids will become better adults and really remember you as a coach who was fair. And in the end you'll feel better about yourself as a coach.

This modern grow plate stuff is interesting and has to be remembered, I'm always thinking about it when I help kids, not saying pitch counts should be "law". I guess I'm just saying coaches have to be aware of it, teach the proper basics of the game, and just let all the kids play equally and have fun playing.

- Bill Chapones


I think I have a unique perspective on this since my son has been going to the Jaeger camps yearly since he was 11 (he is currenlty 14). For  background my son started pitching at his local LL, and when he became more serious with it I started searching for proper coaching help. We started going to Alan's Winter camp as preparation for his 12 yr old season. We have been using Jaeger's program in addition to a pitching coach periodically and my reading every available book on the subject. Like all busy kids he can't throw every day and he does take time off for other sports, but baseball and pitching is his passion.

Prior to his season start (4-6 weeks) we start throwing a couple of times per week, and then build up to 3 times per week. In season he long tosses and does his band work at every practice and prior to each game, so in season he is getting 3-4 long toss sessions in per week. As a side note he is currently throwing around 250-260' and is one of the strongest pitchers in the area - velocity and arm durability wise. We work on mechanics, stick to basic pitches; well located fastballs, effective change ups, and he is just now learning to (properly) throw a curve ball in preparation for high school next year. (No split fingers, cutters, sliders, etc., that overly stress the elbow.) My advice to parents of other kids coming up the ladder are:

1. Let your son direct you to his interest.
2. Let kids be kids and have fun at younger ages.
3. If THEY are serious about it go find good coaching, 11-12 yrs old seemed to be a good age to start to get more serious.
4. The Jaeger program works and will build up a healthy arm, however we do observe pitch counts in games that are age appropriate. LL seems to have it about right and his game pitch count right now is 95 pitches. (Normally he throws less than this but hit it once this year)
5. Keep it real. Your son is NOT going to play MLB ball, regardless what you think. If God blesses him with the one in a thousand magic arms then let his interest take him to his destination.
6. Play ball, have fun, and let his baseball experience help teach him about life's lessons.

- David Griffith

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It's unlikely this controversy is at an end. We welcome your comments, and WebBall will continue to seek the truth (if it can be found).